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Reimagined Workforce - Workforce Transformation
Stories from people who are driving workforce transformation to deliver business performance and value that matters.
Reimagined Workforce - Workforce Transformation
Exploring how AI might support Workforce Planning with David Boyle
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David Boyle shares his fascinating journey from military operations to the corporate world, revealing how his unique background informs his innovative approach to workforce planning. Discover the hidden parallels between military operations and HR strategies, as David emphasises the importance of integrating finance and strategy to tackle organisational challenges.
David explores the possibilities of utilising artificial intelligence to support workforce planning by using it as a coach, tutor, or brainstorming partner, enhancing creativity, productivity, and even emotional well-being.
He weights up the undeniable benefits against privacy and confidentiality concerns to explore how AI is poised to reshape workforce planning, offering new avenues for efficiency and innovation.
Finally, we spotlight workforce planning as a strategic business process that transcends traditional HR boundaries. By fostering storytelling and stakeholder collaboration, this approach aligns workforce planning with broader business strategies, facilitating smoother budgeting and decision-making. Through David’s experiences and our engaging dialogue, we illustrate how workforce planning can support organizational goals and drive a cycle of continuous improvement. Prepare to reimagine the workforce and harness human potential for a more fulfilling future.
The opinions and insights shared by David are his own and not that of his employer.
The Reimagined Workforce podcast is brought to you by Workforce Transformations Australia Pty. Ltd.
All opinions expressed are the speaker's and not the organisations they represent.
If you have a story about a workforce transformation to share and would like to be a guest on this podcast, please contact us at kathhume@workforcetransformations.com.au.
Connect with Kath Hume on LinkedIn
Purchase Kath's book Learn Solve Thrive: Making a difference that matters in a fast and complex world:
Learn Solve Thrive: Making a difference that matters in a fast and complex world : Hume, Kathryn Lee: Amazon.com.au: Books
Reimagining Workforce Planning and Strategy
Speaker 1We have to define the vision and the scope of what workforce planning needs to do for the company. Back to what problem are we trying to solve? And then what data are we going to need in order to solve that problem? And then the stakeholders that are involved are going to be our partners, specifically from financial planning, from strategic planning, from operational planning, depending on the problem that we're trying to solve.
Speaker 2I would encourage people to build those relationships very early on. Welcome to the Reimagined Workforce Podcast brought to you by the Director of Workforce Transformations Australia, kath Hume. In each episode, we explore the stories, strategies and successes of curious, creative and courageous people who are daring to address workforce challenges differently. Together, we'll discover how we can harness human potential and reimagine the workforce for a brighter, more fulfilling future for everyone. And if you would like to learn more from Kath about how we can make this happen, be sure to get a copy of her latest book, the number one Amazon bestseller, learn, solve, thrive making a difference that matters in a fast and complex world. Now for the episode.
Speaker 3David Boyle is the Director of Workforce Planning and Analytics at Altria, a Fortune 200 CPG. In his role, david is maturing the people analytics function and building a centralized workforce planning capability. In his role, david is maturing the people analytics function and building a centralized workforce planning capability. He has an eye on the impact generative AI will have on the way work gets done. Prior to joining Altria, david consulted with Fortune 500 clients on workforce planning. While at Deloitte Consulting, he worked directly with global business leaders on workforce strategy while at Johnson Johnson and managed a variety of operations while in the US Coast Guard. David holds an MBA and Masters of Industrial and Labor Relations from Cornell University and is a published and award-winning author in sustainable business education. David, welcome to the Reimagined Workforce podcast.
Speaker 1Thank you so much for having me, Kath.
Speaker 3It's awesome to have this conversation. We met last week for the first time and, as always, I had wished we'd hit record. So here we are. We're going to do it again. Yeah, great to have you on, and I think if we can get started by having you share a little bit about yourself and what your areas of interest are, yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 1You covered a lot of it in my bio, but if I could add a little bit of color between the lines, I sort of fell into the workforce planning space, and that happened kind of coincidentally and maybe despite myself. As you've mentioned, I spent a number of years in the military, and I used that master's program, the MBA, to launch a new career, get out of the operational space, explore the business environment, and I really wanted to be a consultant. But I had my first child, or my wife and I had our first child while I was in grad school quickly realized the strategy consulting lifestyle was not conducive to what we wanted as a family, and so I quickly shifted gears and fell into an HR internship. Honestly, because recruiting season was over it was March, I didn't have an internship in the bag yet, and so I applied for an HR leadership development program at a company I'd never heard of, and two weeks later I had an offer. So I went into the HR space, discovered an operating model that I had not had exposure to in the military and found that I actually really liked it, and so it kind of doubled down and I got that industrial and labor relations degree as well.
Speaker 1And then at Johnson Johnson I found workforce planning was not something that was done in a centralized manner, but it was kind of part of my job as an HR business partner and what I would say was just built into the workforce strategy work that I had to do. And I found it surprisingly similar to some of the work that I had to do as an operations manager in the Coast Guard. Of course, operations manager wasn't my actual title, but I try to keep the military jargon out of conversations like this. So it surprised me that more HR professionals didn't have that same kind of mindset that no, it's just part of the operation. Of course we're going to tell business leaders about this, of course we're going to just build it into the business strategy, but very few people thought that way.
Speaker 1So when I joined Deloitte I felt that it was kind of an imperative for me to continue doing that type of work and, lucky for me, deloitte had a specific practice dedicated to that and Deloitte had a specific practice dedicated to that, and so I was able to lean on my experience as a military officer as a workforce strategist at Johnson Johnson and really lean on my education to lean in to this workforce planning practice at Deloitte. So that's more or less how I fell into it and from there I just really liked it, loved connecting the dots between finance and strategy and HR and how we're able to help move operations along, and so when I left Deloitte I really didn't want to stop doing that work, which is how I landed in my position at Altria doing that work, which is how I landed in my position at Altria.
Speaker 3It's funny Nick Kennedy and I always say that most people fall into strategic workforce planning and in fact I'll be doing a presentation at the conference in London and possibly in Sydney this year about the accidental workforce planner.
Speaker 3So talking about okay to all those people who have suddenly found themselves with the responsibility of developing a strategic or otherwise workforce plan, how do you do it? So it's bare bones, basic, kind of how do you get started? Because I think more and more we're seeing that that is happening and I think it has taken me a long time to try and work this out myself and if we can give people that little step up and bit of guidance and not saying that it's going to be the same everywhere, but just to be able to share how to get started. So I think yours is similar. What I like is the way that you're raising the profile of SWP as well and just trying to bring other people along on the journey, and I think you, like most other people that I do connect with, is just that once you've had a taste of it, that you kind of love it and you want to open other people's eyes to the potential of it. So it's exciting.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really like it.
Speaker 3Yeah, it is. I think the potential to change and I also like the challenge of it's a really often a gnarly complex problem that you're trying to solve and the fact that you do it with other people and you, you get to learn about them and their organization and the, the levers that you can pull that can really make a difference and how to look at that holistically and comprehensively. I've got this diagram that I use in my workshops that I run that I call my audio mixer sound desk. So I'll try and picture it, but it's, you know, an audio mixer and they've got like the bass and the treble and they've got a whole lot of levers that they pull and it's like that, just to try and give people that visualisation of, yeah, you might move performance, for example, but that has to be married up with wellbeing.
Speaker 3We can't just push people to the limits and not look after their wellbeing, for example. So you need a bit of both. Or do we do succession planning? Do we do career planning, mobility, all of those different levers that we've got available to us Excellent. So when I started the podcast, I really wanted to get people to think differently and I know from your posts, I think that that's something that's motivating you as well, and you talk a little bit about Gen AI. I'm really keen to hear and I ask all my podcast guests this but what does your reimagined workforce look like?
Maximizing the Potential of Generative AI
Speaker 1but what does your reimagined workforce look like? That's a tough question for me because things are changing so rapidly, and on one way I want to kind of be really extreme and say you know, like none of us work in large organizations anymore. I have an unrefined hypothesis that we just didn't evolve as a species to operate in organizations with hundreds of thousands of people. Now I haven't tested that, so I'll back up from that one. What I will say is, I think seemingly small things, when applied at scale and consistently, I think can make a really big difference.
Speaker 1And I'll take a one use case of generative AI that I found incredibly useful in my own personal life and in my professional life, and that's using it like a coach, using it like a tutor, using it like a peer, using it like a second pair of eyes to review my ideas or just to brainstorm with. I think if everyone had that and they used it as not just for professional purposes but also to talk about, maybe, some of the things that are weighing on them emotionally, if we all had that at scale, it's kind of like a I don't want to say therapist in your pocket, because I know that a real therapist is actually very valuable. But even getting there a little bit of the way at scale, I think, could have tremendous impact on us as individuals and therefore on us when we come into organizations and then as a society or within a society at large. So my reimagined workforce has all of us more emotionally healthy and more productive and more creative because we have more support mechanisms to make us better as just holistic people.
Speaker 3I do love that. I love the call out that Gen AI can almost be that human replacement so it's not replacing everything that a human can do, but it can replace part of what they do and also to understand that we are as humans, we are not machines, and that we need to look after ourselves and there's a whole raft of factors that we have control over or not, that we're needing to interact with and and change or manipulate to to our advantage. But I think when people are empowered to do that, they can then contribute better value for the organization. So it it's interesting, therefore, then, what's the role of the organisation? But also, how does strategic workforce planning enable that? Do you have any thoughts about that?
Speaker 1About enabling the use of generative AI.
Speaker 3Yeah, so we talked about that. Gene AI can support individuals to help themselves, I think effectively. So I'm wondering, therefore, what's the organisation's role, because the organisation will benefit when individuals do that. But how do we support people to use AI? And I imagine there's an element of trust that would need to be built. We need to understand.
Speaker 3So me, for example, I don't understand Gen AI well enough, but I feel like it's that repetition actually trains it. So does it, after a while, keep giving me the same responses. I don't know Like I'd be looking for it to give me new ideas. If I'm still having the same issues and I'm not resolving them, is it going to keep spitting me out the same things? Or you know how do I prompt it to say, okay, I tried that. This is the outcome. Can you suggest something else? And also, the other thing that's bearing on my mind is the confidentiality and the privacy issues. So there's risks around that that I think. To get people to trust this process and this tool, a little bit on what the organisation could do to enable people to use it to its potential.
Speaker 1That's true. I think I see what you mean by this, so I have a few thoughts on it. First is that people are using it, despite their organization. Oftentimes, people are using it, and I don't have the specific stats right in front of me, but I know that even when the chatbots are banned in the organizations, people are still using them. They just don't tell anyone. It's because it's so much better with them.
Speaker 1Second, for the organizations that are really leaning into it, I think that they're making a really good move by educating their employees about what it is, what the risks are, how to use it appropriately within their environment, how to use it appropriately within their environment, and then giving them tips and, in some cases, basic trainings. Some organizations go so far as to highly encourage all employees to engage in multiple hours of training in order to take full advantage of it and to get their ideas, because I've found that the more I use it, the more ideas I have on how to use it. And it's back to your point about we just need to experiment with it. There are several influential consultants, professors, people that I've followed on LinkedIn, who regularly encourage their audience to just go and try it. It's not going to work on everything you think it's going to work on, and that's okay, but if you can find even a 10% cost savings and on in aggregate, then it's worth it. It's like no, no other technology has been doing that, at least not not recently.
Speaker 1And so I think your original question about where workforce planning can come in I think it comes down to the nitty gritty of supply and demand of specific capabilities and how those capabilities are being deployed against specific activities, because generative AI is not good at everything, but it's very good at some things, and when those some things can be very clearly defined within an organization's processes and activities, then you can start to identify where things can be augmented or accelerated.
Speaker 1You can start to identify where things can be augmented or accelerated. Maybe 50 people are doing activity A and when they use generative AI, those 50 people can do activity A 10 times faster and have 10 times the output, for example. So that's where I think workforce planning can come in and influence an organization on the importance of generative AI, the potential gains of generative AI, but can also influence the organization, not just to think about cutting jobs because we've found some efficiencies, but can increase the output using the people and the expertise that they have right now using the tools that are now available to them and using that capacity that's freed up by using those tools, so accessing that talent that's not being able to be utilised because we're doing the repetitive things that the machines can do for us now.
Speaker 3So, from your perspective, as a HR or strategic workforce planning practitioner, what are the ways that you use it for your craft today?
Speaker 1Oh, wow, that's a good one. They're not nearly in all the ways that I want to. So there are the things that I know that it's capable of that I have not yet fully tested and tried to embed into our process. One of those things is its ability to produce predictive models. I took a dummy data set earlier this year and just threw it into ChatGPT to see what it can do. I said do a basic analysis of this HR data set and on the fly, right in front of me, in 30 seconds, it produced a random forest model predicting attrition. And I was blown away. I didn't know that it could do that. And then it gave me the Python code for it. Wow, I was very impressed. Now I don't know Python, admittedly, which I think you know.
Speaker 1That's an area of opportunity for me as someone leading a function in this space, but that's an area that I would love to explore more and would love to engage my company's ai council on and just see what we can do there and just explore there. It's going to be a side project, right in a more practical sense. It's wonderful with brainstorming frameworks. It's wonderful with helping to produce communication material or educational material I recently came across and, by the way, all these are my own opinions, not the opinions of Altria. I recently came across a presentation tool called Gamma. That is just phenomenal. Tool called gamma that is just phenomenal. Um, I can put a document in there, I could put notes in there, and it produces a beautiful presentation that's export ready to powerpoint, which I could then, you know, edit and and provide all the specific context or nuance for my organization. Just as a best practice for you and the listeners, I would not advise putting company information into any of these chatbots unless it's something that's publicly available, like a 10K or something like that, and so that's one way that I found it incredibly useful. The strategic workforce planning conferences in Austin this past June, and someone from one of the client groups within my company came and asked me about how to put together a scenario plan, and the Workforce Planning Institute had provided some materials for that, and I used that as a basis, and then I put the Institute's information into I think it was either chat, gpt or cloud or maybe a combination of both and just started playing with it and said, hey, like how can I make this more applicable for what my client is looking for and what they're experiencing Again, not using company specific information, but just giving some of the nuance in a way that would get me thinking a little bit more creatively about it. So those are some ways that I've used it as an individual.
Speaker 1I think there's so much more potential to accelerate the operation and the process of workforce planning in a way that could make it more scalable across an organization, and I'll give a for instance. A lot of organizations I've heard about who have deployed workforce planning do it at a very targeted scale. They'll target if they're in a 100,000-person company, they'll target a workforce of maybe 2,000 or 3,000, and they'll do that one at a time One over here, one over there. They might hit two or three,000 and we'll do that like one at a time one over here, one over there. They might hit two or three over the course of the year. I really believe that with these generative AI tools, if they were firmly embedded, they could accelerate that process to a point where they could cover the entire company using the same number of staff. But that's untested.
Speaker 3I would love to try it, and if you do, can you come back and tell us about it?
Speaker 3yeah, sure, because I think absolutely I think that's the thing we're probably missing at the moment is case studies, and they're definitely coming out like I'm definitely looking at reports and research that's coming out. But I think those large-scale organizations, yeah, there's probably some intrepidation about scaling it up, so there is an element of risk. But I think that whole concept of start small, test, iterate, grow, that kind of concept could be a good place to start. So I was just thinking, as you were talking, two of the things that I've used it for and again making sure I'm not putting any company information in it but one is in Australia we've got something called ANSCO code, so any occupation can actually be attributed to a particular code and so you can put that in. And I've asked it to spit out for me the likelihood that that code or the occupation that that code represents would be replaced by AI or machines in the next 10 years and the supply in Australia, where I am, because that's often the organizations that I'm looking after and then asked it to put it into an Excel spreadsheet and put a numerical rating for that and I can tell it.
Speaker 3I think I did it one to. But then it spits out an Excel and I conditionally format it, sort it and add up the two columns, and it's not a perfect science, obviously, but it's a starting point to have a conversation to say do we think this is right based on the additional data that we have? But really helpful for the conversations because you get a few surprises in there and anomalies. It motivates people to then say I'm not sure about this, let's go and check it out, rather than just starting from scratch and trying to have to do that.
Speaker 3The other thing that I really love is building a capability framework, knowing how many times I've done that in the past and how long and arduous that can be, just as a starting point and just being able to ask it the particular words or give it numbers around how many proficiency levels or what you're trying to achieve with that. You can do it without any risks to by sharing company information. But again, it gives you that basis for conversation. So you can go out and say and you know you test your audience and you work out are they completely new to this concept? If I give them something that looks like it's done, will they actually have a conversation about it or will they accept it as true? So there's still that element of the human nature that has to come in just to work out how do I actually utilize this information or this resource tool whatever we want to call it, but it certainly it saves hours and hours and hours of work that would go into it previously.
Speaker 1Absolutely Sorry. I love that use case for it. I had tried that out as well with the O-Net database here in the US. And to your point great starting point there were some of the specific activities that it was analyzing, especially amongst what the occupation was something like solar system installer, something where people are working out in the field really doing a lot of manual work, but also embedding AI and other existing technologies like drones to analyze landscapes and determine what the best spot might be to install a solar panel, given the specific latitude of the location and the climate. So things like that I would have never thought of because that's not my job. And what really impressed me was it brought in other technologies that seem relatively feasible to use and then to complement with AI in order to help that occupation do its job better.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think that point around it's not perfect. I think we're both saying that. Yeah, I think that point around it's not perfect. I think we're both saying that it's definitely not something that we'd put into ChatGPT or any platform and say that this is one and done. But it's just that starting point. And the other thing I was thinking when you were talking then that I did with the ANSCO code one was then say to it all right, what tasks are likely to be replaced and what tasks are unlikely to be replaced. So even that information was enough to then be able to go back to all right, what are the roles we've got in this organisation? Does this marry up? It's just food for thought, I think, and it just provokes that conversation. One of the things we mentioned last week was and Alicia Roach mentions this too around the strategic workforce planning can get a bit of a bad reputation because of failed attempts in the past, and I'm wondering if you can share with us what your approach is to overcoming or addressing that challenge.
Speaker 1Absolutely, I would say. I mean there are multiple steps and none of them are necessarily sequential, so this may be just a bit of an overload, and then maybe I'll think of the specific steps that I would want to take. But first thing I would do is listen Listen to the clients, listen to the business, listen to whoever it is that has had that bad experience, because we're all human and if we don't feel listened to, if we don't feel validated, no-transcript what hasn't worked for them in the past. It makes tremendous strides in helping to bring stakeholders along on the journey. The second thing I would say is solve a problem that they're experiencing.
Speaker 1Don't just it's like workforce planning doesn't exist just for the sake of existing. It exists to solve business problems and so identify those business problems, if it's. You know, some companies use it just to inform their real estate investment because they need to know how many of their employees are going to be working from home in the future and whether they need to stop paying those millions of dollars in office leases over the course of the next five years. Other organizations are using it to inform their skills strategy and their capability. Or maybe they're entering new markets and their capability, or maybe they're entering new markets, and so identifying what the business problem is that workforce planning can help to solve, I think, is the next thing, and then start telling the story, and not just the story of here's the problem I'm going to solve, and here's like here's the climax of it and here's the solution. And here, like here's how we're a hero.
Speaker 1If we're building a capability, we need to bring people along on the building of that capability and tell them why it's worth it. What are you going to get in the end? What are they going to get along the way? How are we going to show them progress along the way? And? And so, whatever framework or whatever methodology people want to use, I would say, just just use something that's logical, that's easy for stakeholders to understand and that makes it easy for them to see the value in the short run and the long run and, I think, their role in it and that it's achievable and that someone that empathy, that someone cares enough to pay attention to their problems and gives them a bit of hope that actually there is a solution out there.
Speaker 3It's not within my skill set, but someone else has a bit of expertise here, has a few tools in their toolbox that might be able to assist me that I don't know about and bring some optimistic lens to the problems that they've possibly had for a long time, because they've probably been trying to solve the same problem with the same solutions over and over again and can't understand why that's not working.
Speaker 1Yeah, and there's so much more to add to it. It's a team sport. I can't do it on my own Finance, can't do it on its own, and if we try to do that, we're not going to get all the value out of it that we can.
Speaker 3Do you know what I say to people? That I say I can, can do this for you, but you won't like me because I'll hand you a plan and you'll say this isn't me, I don't want to do this, and you don't understand my scenario, you don't understand my situation and so, yeah, look, I will help you as much as I possibly can, but I can't do it without you. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, and that's part of bringing them on the journey. So I like to think of myself as a kind of orchestrator or facilitator who could bring the pieces together and help connect the dots, to draw a big connect-the-dot picture for the organisation which has been helping them to solve the problem.
Speaker 3Yeah, One of the other things we talked about last week was around that integration of workforce planning into the other forms of planning that happen in organizations. And you know, no one is really super mature in this space. Let's be honest, and it's not unusual for financial planning to happen over there or design to happen over there. How do you see that integration and what are you able to do to integrate the workforce planning with business planning?
Speaker 1Yeah, well, I'm glad you're asking that because it's exactly how I think of it. Workforce planning is not an HR process, it's a business process and I frame it as a business process. It's a business process and I frame it as a business process, and I think it needs to be interconnected with other business processes that are just essential to running a good business. Think financial planning, think strategic planning, and those two in particular. So how I think about it, it's somewhat stepwise. First is we have to define the vision and the scope of what workforce planning needs to do for the company. Back to, what problem are we trying to solve? And then, what data are we going to going to be our partners, specifically from financial planning, from strategic planning, from operational planning, depending on the problem that we're trying to solve. I would encourage people to build those relationships very early on and find ways to help those people, even if it's not through workforce planning. Take something off their plate, give them advice, do something that helps them so that they're more likely to want to work with you in the future. I know that could sound a little bit, maybe political, but a lot of organizations are very political and people tend to like us more if we're helping them. So that's a bit on the stakeholder piece. But then, as you're defining an operating model and a governance structure and a cadence for the planning activities that you want to do, marry those up with strategic planning and with financial planning and use workforce planning as a way to inform their processes and then have your workforce plan be informed by theirs. Workforce planning starts with business strategy. For example, if a workforce planning function can go through their whole cycle and come out the other end with three different possible scenarios and budgeting outcomes that they could then hand to finance and work with them to say which one of these is more realistic pulling in the business leader, pulling in the hr business partner and everyone collaborating on it then finance is more comfortable and they're not being and they're not being inundated with sudden headcount requests at the end of the year when they're trying to budget for the next year. So this is how I envision workforce planning really working in a virtuous cycle with strategic planning and with financial planning.
Speaker 1Now, of course it doesn't all happen right away. Right Now, of course it doesn't all happen right away. Right, we have to pilot it. We have to start with the people that are enthusiastic that have a problem that needs to be solved and are willing to work with us and dedicate some resources to it. But once we do that and we have a proof of concept and we communicate that out to the rest of the organization, more people will want to come along, because the pain points of financial planning and of strategic planning are not they're not unique to any one individual business area. Everyone has things that they need work that they that they need help solving yeah, and it just makes sense.
Speaker 3I think possibly we've got this legacy mindset. I guess that where, historically, workforce challenges could be addressed relatively short term. But I just think with the complexity and the degree of change and the supply challenges that we have, it just isn't a feasible option anymore. So I think getting involved in those conversations and I love the call out that if you show people how you can help them, then they'll welcome you in with open arms hopefully. So, yeah, I love it. I can't wait till you've got stories that you can share with us and we can hear some case studies of where this is happening in organisations.
Speaker 1Yeah, I can't wait to build them. One other point that I'd like to make, though. I think you're right it is a legacy framework. The modern industrial age came about in post-World War II 50s, 60s, 70s, when labor was very plentiful.
Speaker 1And when our systems and our strategy mechanisms and the potters and the other you could say say like fathers of business strategy came in and developed their frameworks, labor was not really an issue that had to be addressed. Yes, it wasn't input into the business, just like raw material and capital and time and and those other things, but it wasn't nearly as finite as, say, capital is. Now it's shifted to your point.
Speaker 3Well, david, this is as good a conversation as it was last week, as I expected it would be, so thank you. You are very active on LinkedIn, which I do like. Is that the best place for people to follow you and learn more from you?
Speaker 1It is absolutely.
Speaker 3Excellent, all right, well, thank you so much for your time. It has been an absolute pleasure and I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.
Speaker 1Excellent. Thank you so much, Kath. It was a pleasure being here.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's been great.
Speaker 2Thank you for listening to this episode of the Reimagined Workforce Podcast. We hope the conversation inspires you to consider new ways to solve your workforce challenges. Feel free to check out our other episodes that are available on our website workforcetransformationscomau slash podcast. And if you're looking to create a brighter future for yourself, be sure to grab a copy of Learn, Solve, Thrive Making a difference that matters in a fast and complex world, Available on Amazon and most book retailers globally.
